Why I Ditched Dave Ramsey
I was listening to Dave Ramsey on the radio yesterday and came to the conclusion that it was time to officially say goodbye.
Dave Ramsey’s tag-line is:
“Live like no one else so you can live like no one else!”
I think for his given audience the first part of his statement is valid: Live like no one else. He means live on “beans and rice” and pay off your debts. The truth is half the world lives on barely beans and rice and has nothing but a life of poverty to look forward to. But I digress.
The thing that bothers me is the second half of the “live like no one else.” statement. The idea is that once you’ve paid off your debt and saved your money you can spend it on what you want to. Now most folks want to hear that and so they are happy to listen and hear what Dave has to say. I have trouble cause my Bible (and I’m pretty sure it’s the same one) seems to say we are to be sacrificial in our lives, regardless of how well we’ve saved, etc. And that we should be good stewards, and wise consumers no matter what income/debt we have.
So this is what bothered me: A lady called in yesterday with a question. It was quite simple, her husband and her are debt free. The question was which is better: their current minivan or trading it for an SUV of equal value? Her husband wanted an SUV, but she was opting for sticking with the minivan. What’s the difference? Gas mileage. The topic of the environment didn’t come up, just the cost of a couple extra gallons of gas a week.
Dave’s Response: This is a silly question that you should not fret over. It’s not a “Kingdom issue” It’s maybe $30 a month difference in a debt-free household. She’s being a “tight-wad” (Which Dave says is not a bad thing), and needs to loosen up a little and enjoy the money they have.
Ariah’s Response: Praise God that she cares about the different cost of gas mileage. $30 a month could be used to sponsor a child and give life (a Kingdom Issue?). Global Warming is a serious problem and it should play a factor in what we purchase as well. She was not being a “tight-wad” she was being a wise steward, one that sees the money she has been given not as her’s that God “blessed her” with, but for her to use wisely as God entrusted her with it. They didn’t need the SUV, so it wasn’t the best thing for them to do with their current finances.
I fear too often there are Christians who have these feelings and leaders, pastors, mentors discourage those God-given feelings in people and allow them to fall away from those convictions. I pray this was less true then I think it is.
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Great post and right on target!
One thing with dave is you have to follow all his lessons in His FPU in order to fully understand what hes saying. Dave is very big on giving, like in ariahs response. Dave is just saying why live like an “unfaithful steward” when we should be faithful and responsible stewards. Look at the numbers, most people are far behind in debt, how do you think that effects the Church? and if no one puts a new plan in place for people to follow what will happen to the Church? I really believe dave is a blessing, Im very well versed in investments, real estate and money management - and I learned alot from dave, stuff I never knew! How much more effective would ministers and workers in the Church be if they werent carring a load of “debt” on their backs, Here are some numbers from daves program I find amazing: a person makes $40,000.00 a year for 37 years, lets say he’s 28yrs old. 37 years they will be 65. Now never give them a raise and have them invest 900/per month at 12.5% for the 37 years, pretty easy to do with no debts and no borrowing, the outcome would be a tax free retirement at over 42,000.00/ amonth, and its tax free because it was invested into a roth IRA. Who wouldnt want that for themselves. How much could you give to causes with that kind of money? How many people could you help? Dave is trying to get us positioned to do so.
Just Real,
I wanted to take a quick minute to clarify with you what I meant. It’s not that I think Dave’s advice for saving and getting out of debt aren’t good, in fact I think they are great! He is about the only financial advisor I’ve heard that is so hardcore about getting out of debt, which I think is very “Biblical.”
And it’s not that I don’t think he is an advocate of giving, I’m sure he is and has given a large amount of money.
The problem I had is exactly the situation I mentioned above. I think it is very dangerous when a leader like Dave justifies things, especially when the person is leaning the other way.
The lady who called in need to hear that her desire to save money and gas by her vehicle choice is God-given, that it is a kingdom issue and that she should be applauded for sticking with those convictions.
[...] Why I ditched Dave Ramsey [...]
I think that all of you need to grow up, get a life, and get out of debt.
I listen to Dave Ramsey and have read several of his books. Before, I was a skeptic as well, but I thought, “Well, I have been doing it my way all of this time. Perhaps, I should try something different.” As many of you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.
Needless to say, two years later, I am $8,000 away from being debt free. Originally, I was nearly half a million dollars in debt and thinking I was really “doing well for myself.” Not only has my financial situation changed, I have a change of heart and mind about money.
If you don’t believe what Dave teaches, then that is your prerogative, but until you become debt free and are sitting on half a million dollars in assets rather than half a million in liabilities, then I say, “Shut up.” If you come up with a better plan than Dave’s, I’d like to hear it.
Until then, keep your pessimism and skepticism to yourself and let others who really need a Total Money Makeover continue forward.
Blessings and Debt-free Riches,
Janet
Religion, Religion, get a clue. Stop being led by nutcases and start thinking for yourselves.
I don’t like Dave Ramseys stand on bankruptcy or divorce.
Having read some articles on the net he seems to be against both of them. If he is such a Bible believer he should know there are times when the Bible states divorce is alright.
As far as debts Deuteronomy 15:1-11 enacted what is escentially the first bankruptcy law.
Ironic that a man who once filed bankruptcy himself is so against it. Read his interview from Failure magazine which you can find online.
His comments about people who file are disgusting.
Dave Ramsey is disgusting!
If you want common sense advice about finances check out Harvard Professer Elizabeth Warrens book, ALL YOUR WORTH.
Professor Warren’s plan is simple and easy to understand.
She has compassion, smarts and realizes that bankruptcy is not the end of the world and there is no shame when a person NEEDS a fresh start.
It is NOT a moral issue as Ramsey would like people to beleive.
Check out:
http://www.alperlaw.com/moral_issues.html
May, again… check out the entire program and not just an excert from a mag. I guess we all know that editors NEVER spin articles, do they?! Come on people! CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! You have to work hard to find the Truth these days.
Bankruptcy:
May, if you believe the Word, then you know that bankruptcy is the easy way out (Prov. 6) It is a better idea to do EVERYTHING in your power to avoid bankruptcy! Fresh start or not, it is YOUR debt! Who do you expect to pay!!?? I won’t trust anyone who says different!
In the same area of the scripture that you quoted also talks about
eating unclean animals & taking care of your local Levite.. I hope you are also following these principals or we couldn’t justify “remissing” your debt after 7 years. Yikes! Please don’t take Scripture out of context, quoted for your benefit. It is God’s Word so seek understanding in the fullest!
Divorce:
My family has been affected by divorce. There is NEVER a good time to divorce. If the LORD is LORD the He can handle relationship trials - ALL trials. It does say in scripture that if there is infidelity then one can be delivered from the relationship. But it doesn’t make this a good thing! It is a heart breaking, disgusting, gut wrenching thing! Just like bankruptcy!
This is another context thing: when Dave says these things make him sick or disgusted, he means this in a compassionate way… he is literally sick, gut wrenchingly sick for that person that they are at that point in their life. Both are DIRE situations and can cause physical pain to those who have experienced it. He is not disgusted by them, but FOR them. There is a BIG BIG difference! You should really check him out a little deeper. I have even heard him say in certain situations that there is no other way out in their case, but then goes on to recommend the type of bankruptsy they should consider that would honor God. Cuz in Deut 15, it also says to not go into debt!
Duet 15:6″For the LORD your God will bless you as He has promised you, and you will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow; and you will rule over many nations, but they will not rule over you.”
So why should you need to file bankrupsty?
Remission as refered to in Deut 15:1-2 is to be granted to your neighbor and your brother (kinsmen) so as it says in vs 3, foreign debt can be collected on. “foreign” back then was a different town… so make sure you borrow from your neighbor or brother and hold it seven years! Hold on, back to vs 6: don’t borrow!
The Borrower is SLAVE to the LENDER!
Dave’s system works & works well! It has been GREAT! We love it! Just do the research for yourself and try it for a few months. If you don’t like it, you can always go back to what you are doing now! HA!
Yall have a great day!
Bye for now,
Ray
PS Does anyone know of a good Hebrew I could buy? - Deut 15:12 - “If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you, then he shall serve you six years, but in the seventh year you shall set him free.”
Maybe that was out of context?
Those who listen to Dave Ramsey would be wise to listen to his disclaimer to seek the help of a professional financial advisor for their particular situation.
Anyone who would take advice from a radio personality who listens to their probelm for a few minutes and comes up with a plan is not doiug what is in their best interest. Especially with a man who is so narrow minded like Ramsey.
Please tell me, did Dave Ramsey repay his creditors after he got back on his feet after filing bankruptcy?
He seems to like to boast about himself I think he would be proud to let others know that he repaid his creditors.
I have never heard him mention if he did and asking him has not brought me any response.
Hmmmm..I wonder why??
Those who listen to Dave Ramsey would be wise to listen to his disclaimer to seek the help of a professional financial advisor for their particular situation.
Anyone who would take problem for a few minutes and comes up with a plan is not doiug what is in their best interest. Especially with a man who is so narrow minded like Ramsey.
Please tell me, did Dave Ramsey repay his creditors after he got back on his feet after filing bankruptcy?
He seems to like to boast about himself I think he would be proud to let others know that he repaid his creditors.
I have never heard him mention if he did and asking him has not brought me any response.
Hmmmm..I wonder why??
Dear May, please press submit once upon creating a comment. It takes a while on your dial up aparently and when you “double & tripple click” it post 2 and 3 times!
May, do you have a vandetta against Dave as a person? Do you tear down or hate? I tend to believe that Dave is a pretty humble guy. He sure does give away a lot of money that he never talks about. (I know some who have been on the receiving end).
Why instead of addressing the above debate do you chose to attack a person? I believe that is a losing battle since we are ALL sinners, (Romans 3:23 & 6:23) May, Ray, & even Dave have made mistakes in life! However I wouldn’t want to hear a war story from someone who has never been in battle. I wouldn’t want to hear about how to recover from an accident from someone who has never been damanged. I woudln’t want to hear about how to become debt free from someone who has never been in debt or someone who has never recovered from that debt.
May, if you listen to the last CD in his set of “Financial Peace University”, he tells his story. There he addresses all your concerns about him as a person. You can also call into his radio show and address your question.. unless they are covered up with those folks screaming “I’m Debt FREEEE!!!” You may have to wait a few minutes.
Is this personal attack because there is no rebuttle to the above premisses? Am I right to assume that you have nothing to say in response that could further our disucssion/debate?
Thanks for your wise contributions. They have been a great help in understanding where you are coming from on these issues.
HAVE FUN!
You sound like the pot calling the kettle black. TRY REREADING YOUR NOTE.
You can’t answer my question if Ramsey repaid his creditors, can you?
I have no interest in buying his books, cds or other items he is selling.
You know nothing about my life and yet you make outragous statements about not wanting to hear from someone about this or that.
Advising people to take the disclaimer that is read several times on Ramseys show is very good advice.
I hope that more people do that for thier own sake.
Sitting down with a professional and going over your financial situation is much wiser than making important decisions based on a brief conversation with someone on the radio.
I listened to Dave on XMRadio until the first time I heard his self-promotion for his seminars. I’m sure they offer good sound advice and all sounded good including the $29 registration fee. But THEN, his voice changed pitch and he got all excited telling us about the VIP and PLATINUM VIP packages (without mentioning cost) for the shows. Doesn’t paying more for a fancy title fly in the face of his entire money philosophy? Isn’t that exactly the type of thing he would say is unnecessary and urge his callers not to waste money on? The people in the general admission are going to get the exact same information at the exact same time as those who pay more for the “privilege” of sitting a few rows closer. The hypocrisy of this overwhelms me.
Also, how much sense does it make to pay off a 4.5% mortgate and lose the mortage interest deduction, when the stock market has averaged over 10% for the past 50 years? None.
Jason…. sup?
Buddy, if you can’t afford the VIP, it isn’t for you! There are lots of privelages that come with it, besides sitting closer and if you are debt free, don’t have any payments, and are building wealth fast, a few extra bucks for some fun is nothing.
PS Did you know that everyone self promotes… I believe they call it “advertising” but I’m not sure.
4.5% Mortgage vs 10% Stock Market
What you propose sounds great Jason…
However, most people don’t have that extra $ to invest in that sweet 10% stock market due to “payments.” Every month.. payments to debt. Think of how fast you could build weatlh in that 10% stock market with NO PAYMENTS!
If you do the Math, Jase, the smart way is to pay of that home ASAP and the INVEST INVEST INVEST… but not in individual stocks or a personal portfolio, check out some good growth stock mutual funds that have averaged over 12 - 18% LONG TERM!! (See these mutual funds have all kinds of NERDS that follow every industry every second of the day & every “major player.” They move out of that famous restuarant when they find out about the management quitting or bad food being shipped and then WE read about it in Wall-St. Journal about 2 days later when the stock has already dropped!) Those funds are the way to go! (but Diversify in them).
Also, I don’t know about you Jason… if your house was paid off, would you borrow against it to invest in stocks? Most people with half a brain would say, “NO!” and if you don’t say know, your wife SHOULD! In effect, that is what you are doing when you don’t pay the thing off and you try to invest in stocks. Especially if that note is called by the bank and all your $ is tied up in the stock market… OUCH! Immediate loss of home & wealth! Do not pass go, do not collect $200!
Do the math with the long term investment making 12% & you making that payment at 4.5% on that home for 30 years!
Then, do the math with taking that $$ you would invest in 12%, paying off the home in a few years and investing ALL (12% investment + 4.5% payment) and you will be amazed at the income potential!!!
Plus, YOU ARE DEBT FREE!
But keep searching for the truth Jason. You are definately on the right track and your brain is thinking… But don’t get cought up in this Good Debt / Bad Debt game. Many many lose everything in that game!
This is fun. I
May, I agree. You should really seek professional help.
The answer to your question is that you should listen to his entire story on the last cd of the FPU series. I think you will find it very helpful in seeking the truth before attacking a person.
Jason…. sup?
Buddy, if you can’t afford the VIP, it isn’t for you! There are lots of privelages that come with it, besides sitting closer and if you are debt free, don’t have any payments, and are building wealth fast, a few extra bucks for some fun is nothing.
PS Did you know that everyone self promotes… I believe they call it “advertising” but I’m not sure.
4.5% Mortgage vs 10% Stock Market
What you propose sounds great Jason…
However, most people don’t have that extra $ to invest in that sweet 10% stock market due to “payments.” Every month.. payments to debt. Think of how fast you could build weatlh in that 10% stock market with NO PAYMENTS!
If you do the Math, Jase, the smart way is to pay of that home ASAP and the INVEST INVEST INVEST… but not in individual stocks or a personal portfolio, check out some good growth stock mutual funds that have averaged over 12 - 18% LONG TERM!! (See these mutual funds have all kinds of NERDS that follow every industry every second of the day & every “major player.” They move out of that famous restuarant when they find out about the management quitting or bad food being shipped and then WE read about it in Wall-St. Journal about 2 days later when the stock has already dropped!) Those funds are the way to go! (but Diversify in them).
Also, I don’t know about you Jason… if your house was paid off, would you borrow against it to invest in stocks? Most people with half a brain would say, “NO!” and if you don’t say know, your wife SHOULD! In effect, that is what you are doing when you don’t pay the thing off and you try to invest in stocks. Especially if that note is called by the bank and all your $ is tied up in the stock market… OUCH! Immediate loss of home & wealth! Do not pass go, do not collect $200!
Do the math with the long term investment making 12% & you making that payment at 4.5% on that home for 30 years!
Then, do the math with taking that $$ you would invest in 12%, paying off the home in a few years and investing ALL (12% investment + 4.5% payment) and you will be amazed at the income potential!!!
Plus, YOU ARE DEBT FREE!
But keep searching for the truth Jason. You are definately on the right track and your brain is thinking… But don’t get cought up in this Good Debt / Bad Debt game. Many many lose everything in that game!
This is fun. I
I, too, am curious about Mr. Ramsey’s debts following his own personal bankruptcy. As he does admonish to those who have file bankruptcy to pay back the debtors, stating it is the right thing to do, I am sure he has paid all of his back in full, especially considering his great wealth which has been attained since.
Does anyone know the details on this subject? I’ve never read his story about how he repaid HIS debts after bankruptcy.
And—Ray—-in your “cutting” replies to May, for her “contributions”: I don’t see that you’ve offered much yourself towards the subject, except for your weak attempts at being superior in Biblical knowledge and computer skills. She is entitled to her opnion, as we all are, and you need to come to grips with that. It frightens me to read posts where someone spouts off scripture and in the same post commences to speak insulting remarks about others’computer skills, etc. Be careful throwing out scripture to back oneself up—even Satan knows the scriptures. It is very well to be able to quote scripture to back up your beliefs, but to live the scriptures is the true guarantee that the blessings promised will be granted. A person can quote them all day long (as I said, so can Satan), but they are to be LIVED, not quoted.
I DO agree with you, Ray, on the subject of giving. I have read that Ramsey does give of his earnings, and I admire and respect him for that. I admire his attempts at facing the world debt problem, which is so critical. I’m glad he may be getting a prime time TV program on the subject. It’s an idea which is long overdue.
But I still want to know, as May does, did HE repay all his debtors, as he instructs his “followers” to do? Why can’t anyone answer that? Since he is very clear about his feelings on the subject, I just think he owes it to the public to disclose those details, too.
Carol,
I doubt we will ever get the true answer if Dave Ramsey repaid his creditors after bankruptcy. But I think I know the answer!
I used Dave Ramseys plan to become debt free. I FILED BANKRUPTCY! Just like he did!
I didn’t use a radio personality to get advice from either. I contated two reputable credit counselors who advised me to file after reviewing my situation in detail.
I have no regrets. Most financial experts say one can recover from bankruptcy is as little as three to four years as long as they pay thier essentials, create savings, and don’t go into debt again. Bankruptcy will stay on ones credit report for ten years like Ramsey says, but his dire warnings are silly. Most creditors will only look at the past few years. There are people who have filed BK and bought a house at a good interest rate in as little as four years.
I am well on my way to recovery.
Like Dave Ramsey, I do not use credit cards, even though these greedy companies are almost banging my door down offering me pre screened offers.
Unlike Dave Ramsey, I feel the goverment needs to get involved to put a stop to unfair practices like universal default and put a cap on the loan shark interest fees that
so many unsuspecting people get for even minor problems in their credit reports.
Every reputable financial expert supports reforms in the credit card industry and knows that personal responsibility is not the whole picture. The government needs to pass laws to stop these loan sharks and protect the people who elect them.
Those who lobby to protect the consumer are far outnumbered by the powerful credit card/banking lobby.
It’s a sad situation for the people in this country when our politicans are bought by this very powerful lobby.
And they are. That’s how the new bankruptcy law was passed.
Have a good day.
May
I agree, May. I don’t think we’ll ever hear that part of the story.
But I am wondering one thing, which is brought to my mind by the Biblical references used to support the error in filing for bankruptcy.
Dave claims that it is not a Christian thing to do, to file bankruptcy. Which causes me to wonder. He filed. Making a mistake and using your experience to enlighten others is one thing, which I appreciate him for. But, since he’s chosen to use base his foundation for this feeling on Biblical instruction—I wonder that he never has followed that up with a statement reflecting that he perhaps was saved or found God AFTER his bankruptcy.
Please don’t get me wrong. I am a Christian as well, and would never mock nor challenge anyone’s faith, or criticize them for Bible-based decisions. But, as a Christian, I would like to know the story behind this. He may very well have mentioned at some time that he found God AFTER filing. But, if he was a Christian at the time he filed, and continues to admonish those who file based on Bible facts, then he also needs to state that he DID INDEED sin also, and has since asked forgiveness from God. If he truly is a Christian (and I have no reason at all to doubt that), he needs to clarify that to his “followers”.
And, again, don’t get me wrong. I would never criticize nor challenge a person’s feelings about what God wants them to do. But, as a Christian myself who has filed bankruptcy, I earnestly want to know the story behind all of this in order to take him seriously.
–Carol
Carol,
There are alot of wolves in sheeps clothing, and alot of people who will wrap themself in religion to make money.
I am totally convinced it was God himself who lead me to the decision to file bankruptcy.
May
So, yall… for some reason it wouldn’t let me post and then like may posted 3 times. Hm.
Anyway, Carol, it was never my intent to “cut” May and I reread each post and didn’t see what you were talking about. I was honest in thanking her for her contributions. Please don’t read it as sarcasim. However, May, if it was taken as a cut, please forgive me as it was not my intent.
I don’t hold superior computer skills as illustrated by the TRIPPLE POST that went though when this thing flagged my post. I was just simply trying to help because it is a common problem on these things with slower networks… or post that flag for spam as this one does.
I don’t hold superior Bible skills, but it DRIVES ME NUTS when something is quoted out of context. I’m just searching for truth!
May, I think we can both agree and Credit Card companies suck (as does bank bankruptcy), however your earlier post seemed to justify it and then also use Dave’s mistake to rationalize it. I was simply pointing that out and didn’t agree with your logic behind attack Dave as a perons. Carol makes a much more logical agruement and I can see where she is coming from. No vendeta, honestly trying to find the answers.
I encourage both of you to try out Dave for a while. It has totally changed my financial situation! We’ll be debt free soon and then building wealth. Don’t get hung up in the small theological disagreements! Talk to him about it after you’ve made your millions. (Literally).
Well, I have to go. This is most likely be my last post unless encourage to do otherwise. Have a great day.
Bankruptcy does not suck as you say Ray.
It is sometimes something people who are in debt need to consider.
What is not logical is some people who I have read about who will follow Ramseys plan no matter what.
Do you think it makes any sense when they deny themself or their family medical care because they are bound and determinded to get their debt paid off? I have read about people who are in that situation and still cling to the hope of Ramseys plan .
If things are that bad that and a person can’t go to a doctor when they need to, maybe it is time to consider bankruptcy.
But people who believe and cling to every word Ramsey says and seem to think he has the gospel truth about everything may be put off seeking help through bankruptcy .
I could have respect for Ramsey if he would speak the truth about bankruptcy, but his interview in Failure magazine furthers the myth about people who file bankruptcy.
There is a certain percentage who abused the system, but studies have shown most people file after all other options are closed to them. For Ramsey to question the integrity and morals of those who file is insulting. To say probably 80 percent who file really didn’t need to is
stupid. He doesn’t know the details why everyone filed just like we don’t know the details why he filed and if he “really” needed to.
Ramsey would benefit by reading books/ articles by Harvard Professor Elizabeth Warren. She makes much more sense and has true compassion for people who are struggling with debt.
If a person can’t pay off debt in a timely manner then it is time to consider bankruptcy.. after all a person CAN repay their creditors when they get back on their feet.
You won’t hear that message from Ramsey though!
When push comes to shove a person always has to consider themself and their family first.
May
From what I understand of Dave Ramsey, his stance on bankruptcy is to avoid if at all possible. If you think about it, if it is possible to avoid bankruptcy, it is almost stealing from your creditors to file, because you are keeping them from collecting on money that is justly owed them. But as I understand it, Dave Ramsey supports filing for bankruptcy if that is the only option. If it can be avoided, he wants to avoid it strongly, but if it’s the only answer in that particular situation, then he understands and has adviced people through bankruptcy. Listening to his show a couple weeks ago, there was a person who was going to file bankruptcy because they just could not make all the payments and were totally overwhelmed and were resigned to lose their house through bankruptcy and just start over.
Also, I think I’ve heard Dave talk about his bancruptcy experience and how that interacted with his Christian faith. As he explains it, at that time, he never considered his financials dealings from a spiritual or biblical perspective. He was a Christian, but was ignorant about what the Bible said about money and debt. After he lost everything and filed for bankruptcy, he started to look into it and see what the Bible had to say about it. That’s when he came to his beliefs that he holds now. I think there are things that all of us are ignorant about when it comes to what the Bible says, and so we can’t fault him too much for not knowing what the Bible said about it. That doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a Christian, just that he had room to grow and I think he’s grown since then in his learning.
It all depends on ones circumstances as to whether a person who files bankruptcy has “stolen” from their creditors.
With the loan shark fees many people have paid some of them have plodded along for years and years,paying the original balance not only once but many times plus paying tons of interest. My lawyer told me that and I think he has seen enough cases to know.
Dave Ramsey refuses to say whether or not he repaid his creditors. If he feels so strongly that bankruptcy is a moral issue and questions the integrity of those who file, which he did in the Failure Magazine article, I think he has an obligation to repay his creditors he listed in bankruptcy and tell others that is what he did.
He DOES want to be a good example doesn’t he? The creditors are still there and they are not going to refuse anyones payment .
I question what he learned as far as compassion and understanding for others when he says the amount of shame a person feels depends on their integrity. Tell that to someone who filed because they lost their job, or got cancer, or their house floated out in the Gulf of Mexico during a hurricane.
There are all sorts of reasons why a person files bankruptcy. Ramsey doesn’t know every reason. Saying probably 80 percent of people who file didn’t have to is just plain stupid and insulting. Is that being a good Christian?
I wrote to Harvard Professor Elizabeth Warren with my thoughts about Dave Ramsey. Unlike Dave Ramsey who has never replied to my emails Professor Warren replied and told me she thought I hit the nail on the head.
Those who follow Ramsey so religiously would do themself a favor to read some of Elizabeth Warrens books.
May
Hey May, I wanted to respond to one thing you said in your latest post. “Saying probably 80 percent of people who file didn’t have to is just plain stupid and insulting. Is that being a good Christian?” I think this is the second time I’ve read this in your posts and at first I wasn’t going to comment but since you said it again I’ll add my thoughts to it. Honestly, I have no idea if that 80 percent figure it way off or not. I just don’t have the knowledge to know. But Dave has seriously talked with thousands of people that are considering bankruptcy, whether in person or on his radio show. He may be totally wrong, but I just don’t have the knowledge, experience, or education to disagree with him. But I don’t think it’s right to call that “stupid and insulting” unless you have enough personal experience to disagree. I understand you went through a bankruptcy, and maybe you’re part of the 20 percent, but I haven’t even met a hundred people who have filed for bankruptcy. Do you have that kind of experience to not only disagree with him, but declare his statement so ridiculuous that it makes him “stupid and insulting.” It’s ironic that in the same breathe you call him insulting, you have insulted him. And lastly, I don’t think that a person’s faith should be questioned based on what percent of bankruptcies he believes could be avoided. It’s like questioning if someone could be a good Christian and speculate what percentage of people need to eat healthier.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12306509/site/newsweek/
The above link is about the documentary Ramsey mentioned on his radio show MAXED OUT. He appeared in this documentary.
He commented that he was all for personal responsibility. I think we are all for personal responsibility, but as this article shows, personal responsibilty is only part of the picture when it comes to debt.
For Ramsey to be against the government getting involved to outlaw loan shark interest rates and this dirty trick called Universal Default is mind boggling.
Every person fighting for consumer rights knows we need laws to stop these very large, powerful corporations from harming more people.
It’s not enough just to say stop using credit cards!
That is a really interesting article. Thank you May for posting it! Now I want to watch that movie, Maxed Out, but it’s not on Netflix so I don’t know where to get it.
Zach,
I am on an online BK group and I believe the notes that have been written there by people who filed bankruptcy.
It was their only choice unless they choose sucicide and some people actually consider that. Some even do it.
There are many different reasons why people had to file.
I listened to Ramsey today. I guess the word stupid came to mind since I heard him repeat it so much.
Another stupid thing I think Ramsey says is giving these dire warnings about filing bankruptcy. People do recover. Hey, Donald Trump, who by the way says he is a Christian has filed bankruptcy more than once! Does he look like he hasn’t recovered? Do a search on famous people who have filed bankruptcy and I am sure you will recognize many of the names. They recovered too! It’s not the end of the world like Ramsey seems to try and convey. Sometimes people need a fesh start!
Ramsey just may be scaring away people who need the freah start that BK gives.
You don’t have to be down to your last dime to be bankrupt. In the state I live in a person can have up to 5 grand in the bank. That 5 grand could go in a heartbeat too if a person had an accident and landed in the emergency room and had no insurance.
You’re welcome Zach. Glad you checked out the link.
I was furious about that comment about Citibank trolling parts of Miss and taking advantage of people. Citibank is evil in my opinion.
I want to see it too or get the DVD. I wrote to the maker of the film and if I get info I will post it here.
There is a book Maxed Out coming at the end of this year. Like many book authors there will probably be a tour and he’ll be on all sorts of talk show. I hope so. It’s an important topic.
Maybe it will get more people to tell credit card co’s to go take a hike.
Signing off the computer for the night,
May
PS pass that link around please!
Debunking the Financial Gurus
This forum is a good argument to see a counselor to deal with your own specific issues with your money.
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/arcmessageview.php?catid=52&threadid=242047
[...] My co-host Zach has been quite busy in the recent month or so and though this is no excuse, we have been unable to do a podcast for quite some time. Fortunately, this dark period of audio silence might soon be coming to and end. The school year is almost over and that means a little breathing room for both of us. We’ll see how full force the podcast returns, but at the least you can expect one this summer. Lately, we’ve been talking about finances and I’m sure that conversation will continue. We’ll chat about Dave Ramsey and Debt, mutual funds and student loans. Hopefully it’ll be something you’ll enjoy. Stay tuned… Dave Ramsey, debt, finances, mutual funds, podcast [...]
May, you don’t like Dave Ramsey because you feel that his saying bankruptcy is bad reflects poorly on you having filed for bankruptcy so you attack him.
That’s silly.
Dave filed for bankruptcy. He tithed all the way through during that. And you are trying to say he’s not christian. Well folks, most Christians don’t tithe when they are wealthy, let alone going broke. How can I say most? Look around at churches and how much of the Lords kingdom has been built.
I know folks who filed for bankruptcy, right after maxing out their cards and doing pay day loans. Is that everbody? No, but it is everybody I’ve ever known who filed for bankruptcy.
Does that mean you are that way May? No!!
Is ramsey saying every person filing bankruptcy is a fraud? No! But for some reason you think you are in the 80% he was talking about. Until Ramsey tells you that you are in that 80%, he didn’t say you. You take a general statement made by Ramsey to apply to you specifically in the negative and then you turn around and specifically attack negatively.
As for the Scripture references for bankruptcy, I believe those were to the creditor forgiving the debt. There was nothing for the debtor to say to the creditor ‘tough donuts’. The creditor was to forgive, but it wasn’t by the force of the debtor. And that’s a creditor who was a Jewish believer. I think you’ll find in large multi-national banks, that not all the officers study scripture, and the scriptures they study might not be from the Bible.
Often the job loss may be the last straw, but it wasn’t the preceding 99. If someone has two car payments,a house payment, and three credit card payments, how easy is it for a bump in the road to destroy? Okay, same bump in the road, but only a house payment? Okay, same bump, no payments?
As for the original blogger… SUV versus van. It’s not a kingdom issue no matter how you try to frame it. I seem to recall the caller and I don’t remember a mention of receiving any devine message on staying with the van. Can there be a human opinion that doesn’t need to be inspired by God? Well, I’m not sure, but I seem to recall a passage in the new testament written by Paul where he speaks as a regular Joe and not as a prophet (it wasn’t doctrine, didn’t need to be inspired).
If you want to be strict, then everytime the hand offends thee, it should be cut off, right? Well, everytime you promise away future income (debt) that could instead be used to build the kingdom of God in the world, that hand should get tossed and we should see a lot of people that can’t scratch their nose.
Where there is no margin, there’s no ministry. If you see someone driving an SUV and you think they are wrong for doing so, you haven’t heard the scripture about removing the plank from your own eye before looking at the splinter in others. Ramsey is telling folks to tithe (actually tithe, 10% of their income, no matter what). How many folks on Radio or TV that aren’t the ones trying to receive said tithe say that? And even the folks who are trying to receive the tithe often aren’t enforcing it being a tenth (don’t want to offend those sending in cash).
I’ve read the old and new testament and the one thing I came away with is that man is imperfect, no acts of our own can save us (but we are still responsible for doing them, faith without works is dead, and does not result in everlasting life with our Father in Heaven), that Jesus died for our sins, and THE kingdom issue is knowing that fact and doing something positive with that knowledge.
Dave once said (repeating somebody else’s quote) that the best we will ever do here on earth is to God the equivalent to a child’s ‘painting’ on a parent’s refrigerator. We are all unprofitable servants and have been given much. The question is what are we doing to multiply the talents the Lord has given us? I think Ramsey has an answer to that question if our Saviour asked him.
May, If you want to hang your opinion on whether Ramsey ever paid off all his debtors, that your prerogative, but..
Have you apologized to everyone you’ve ever been rude to?
Do you have racca against your brother?
Did you leave your offerings until you corrected it?
Have you ever asked Dave for forgiveness for making such demands and public statements about him when he has said absolutely naught about you?
No? Then perhaps you don’t want to be so strict in your judging, because if the same is to be applied to you, you won’t fare very well. Don’t get me wrong, neither would I. Judge not lest ye be judged. That’s in there too.
Oh, and on divorce, the Messiah stated that it was do to the heardness of their hearts that it was allowed. I don’t think Jesus was in favor of divorces and neither is Ramsey. That seems sound. Neither said it can never be done, and truly it’s only important on what Christ said.
You seem to have guilt in your heart (other wise you wouldn’t apply the 80% to yourself instead of applying the other 20%). Get down on your knees and pray. If that doesn’t work, read scripture and repeat. If you did everything you could, you should be firm in that knowledge and you should be applying the 20% that Dave said do need bankruptcy to yourself.
This post is already to long. For he that hath ears, let him hear. Christ’s gentle way of saying being open minded.
I agree with Wayne.
Awesome.
PS May, I check out your link: http://blog.iamnotashamed.net/2006/04/05/why-i-ditched-dave-ramsey/#comments
That advice sux… Just so you know.
Here is a sample of one of the posts and the “advice” that May suggest we all take.
“If people would like to see a hard example of what I’m talking about - probably the most common example of bad advice is how these gurus discuss credit card use. These gurus tell people to avoid credit cards like the plague, even recommending debit cards over credit cards….
However, if they were REALLY giving out sound financial advice, they would not neglect to mention that credit cards are the absolute BEST way to purchase items. All you need is ths discipline to not charge what you cant afford and pay your bills in full.”
Right. All you need is “discipline.” I think this person’s last name is Visa! Maybe May’s full name is May Ster Card???? Do we have one of “them” in our midst!?!?! Dun, Dun, DUUUUUN!!!!
Later all,
Ray
Wrong link from May. Here is the one she suggested:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/arcmessageview.php?catid=52&threadid=242047
My Apologies.
PS Since our last discussion, using Dave Ramsey’s “system” and philosophy, my wife and I have paid off 3 debts and about $3,000 in other debt.
This seems to be working for me. How bout it!!!! It has ONLY BEEN ONE MONTH!!!!!!! From MAY 3rd to NOW! WAHOOO!
Laughing all the way OUT of DEBT!,
Ray
:
Bankruptcy should be considered in some circumstances and Ramsey has a closed mind to never recommend it to anyone on his show. It’s obvious listening to his callers that some should at least consider it.
I certainly hope they listen to his disclaimer and consult with a professional about their specific situation instead of listening to a man on the radio who spends less than five minutes with them.
If Ramsey hadn’t made his insulting comments in his Failure Magazine article I would not question him. Of course I have stopped asking, because he refuses to answer.
I notice in his other interviews he chooses his words very carefully when he is asked about his own debt problems almost twenty years ago. He never mentions the word bankruptcy..
I could have more respect for him if he would be upfront and admit he filed bankruptcy and give some details about it. Like answer the question if he repaid his dreditors after he got back on his feet.
I have no guilt or shame filing bankruptcy. I was bankrupt long before I filed and it was the best decision for me.
I wrote to Harvard Professor Elizabth Warren who I think is much more knowledgable than Ramsey.
I told her I though Ramsey was delaying the inevitible for many of his callers when he refuses to tell them to consider bankruptcy whn it is painfully obvious they could
benefit from a fresh start. She agreed with me.
Anyone can repay creditors after they get back on their feet. Even Ramsey!
“If Ramsey hadn’t made his insulting comments in his Failure Magazine article I would not question him.”
Okay, how are the comments insulting to you unless you infer that you are in the 80%?? Did he mention you by name? No, he didn’t. YOu have however made insulting comments about him by name.
“He never mentions the word bankruptcy..”
Let’s see. He wrote about it in his first, second, and third books. He says on the radio he has a PHD in d-u-m-b. He’s told multiple callers how he had a one million dollar networth but he had 4 million dollars of real estate and the new owner of the bank called in his notes. I can about repeat the story accurately from memory from listening to his radio show.
He talked about his stupid pride and trying to keep a jacquar car when his family was broke. He talked about his friend co-signing for said car and the bank calling his friend. He talked about selling it just before it was repo’d and how that was insane.
If the interviews you read don’t have it in it, oh well. Millions of people who have listened to his show have heard him state it numerous times. They’ve also heard him talk to people who had already filed bankruptcy and him give them counsel.
“I have no guilt or shame filing bankruptcy.”
False as fact. If you didn’t feel bad, you wouldn’t be trying to fry Ramsey and you wouldn’t infer that you were in the 80% Ramsey stated didn’t need to file bankruptcy. You were insulted. It’s hard to be insulted if you don’t feel something applies to you.
“I wrote to Harvard Professor Elizabth Warren who I think is much more knowledgable than Ramsey.”
That’s great, and what, the third time you mentioned her?
Let’s see, if we are going to do the numbers thing… 280 stations across the country carry his show. Millions of listeners. CBS pilot for a possible TV show. Best selling books (plural). I think more than a few folks agree with Ramsey. I’m sure we could find somebody who is a professor at some grand college as well.
You don’t have ears and you don’t wish to hear. You are stuck and the reason you are stuck on this is because you haven’t forgiven yourself for filing bankruptcy. If you didn’t feel/think that you were in the 80%, the statement wouldn’t have had any effect on you.
It’s like the statement ’some folks really smell’. Do you immediately jump to the conclusion that means you? Most folks who don’t smell don’t feel that they are in that group.
You don’t have ears and you refuse to hear, so last thing I’m typing on it.
Ray, I’m so happy to hear about your sucess with your debts. I would love it if you would share some details about how you/ve made such phenonemal progress so quickly! If you don’t mind, please give us some details. I’m sure it would be very encouraging for many.
I’ve been reading the past posts since our last “round”, and I just don’t get the impression that some are getting, that May feels feels guilty about her bankruptcy. I don’t get that impression at all. For people like me, who have file bankruptcy (due to much more of a catastrophe than a “bump” in the road!), there is no reason to feel guilt.
I may be wrong, but I feel like May is merely disappointed and disallusioned by Dave Ramsey, because of his evasiveness about his bankruptcy. And I am, too. And don’t tell me it doesn’t matter. It does. For one thing, I read his latest column in “Quick and Simple” magazine. In it, he goes so far as to say that he and his wife, when they hit rock bottom, sold their house to pay off their debts. Where on earth did that new story come from? You can read it for yourself. So now he’s gone from the evasivesness about his situation, to a completely new history that says he DID pay off his debts, and —– what about the bankruptcy?
However—–I would be quick to change my opinion of his “teachings” if I could read somewhere, in black and white, what ACTUIALLY happened in his past and what he ACTUALLY did to recover. Because, yes, it does matter. And anybody who considers his “methods” has the right to know also. One other reason it matters is because I heard him advise that debts should be repaid to the debtors after a bankrupcty—-but noone has EVER heard if he has done so or not. Not that he is either a financial expert nor a Biblical one—–but just so that I could trust that he has practiced what he has “preached”.
And, Ray—–it is so funny that you spout scriptures right and left, yet have the nastiest, most hateful way of talking, especially to May. I haven’t seen that she’s been “mocking” or insulting you, as you have to her. There’s no call for that. You need to focus less on the scriptures about debts and study more on how to act. There’s no need for such behaviour. If I was going to decide to take up Dave’s methods, I’d be turned off by reading you and never consider his plan at all.
Your good ideas and thoughts are washed out by your demeaning talk.
>there is no reason to feel guilt.
I agree! If you did what you could with what you had and you still couldn’t do it, then there’s no reason to feel guilty. I’m not saying May should feel guilty, I’m stating that based on taking the general remarks Ramsey made about bankruptcy personally, and immediately assuming they applied to herself, that *She* feels guilty. i’m not saying she should. i’m saying that guilt feeling is the reason for the attack on Ramsey.
I was once at a Christmas party talking with my aunt about schizophrenia and paranoia. We were talking generally and another relative heard us speaking about paranoia and blurted “I’M NOT PARANOID”. This is kind of similar.
>Where on earth did that new story come from?
New story??? He’s stated numerous times that he and his wife, along with a toddler and infant were living in a rental because they needed the money from his home to pay off creditors. He sold everything in sight, including his home, tithed the entire time, and still want bankrupt. It’s not a new story (at least not to somebody who has read his books or listened to the show for a few months).
I’m not a Ramsey zealot. I do think what he teaches is sound. I do think he is a christian. I think he is talking about two things the public doesn’t generally want to talk about… Debt, and the fact that we consume to fill the whole better filled by the love of Christ and his work.
If you dislike folks because what they say is hurtful, then you have to dislike just about every prophet Heavenly Father has ever sent us.
Old testament (paraphrased a little becasue I’m not near a Bible. “Even an ass knows its master, but Israel does not know its God” Ouch! Christ speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew chapter 23 (could be 25, pretty sure it’s 23) about how they make the outside of the cup, but the inside… you get the picture.
I’m not saying anyone’s aim should be hurtful. I don’t think Ramsey was trying to offend May (unless he really did mention by name), but he was trying to get the point across that lots of people abuse the system. If May isn’t one of those folks, I don’t know why she feels compelled to attack the person who made the statement about 80% of the people who aren’t like May.
Carol Said:
Ray, I’m so happy to hear about your sucess with your debts. I would love it if you would share some details about how you/ve made such phenonemal progress so quickly! If you don’t mind, please give us some details. I’m sure it would be very encouraging for many.
Then she said:
And, Ray—–it is so funny that you spout scriptures right and left, yet have the nastiest, most hateful way of talking, especially to May. I haven’t seen that she’s been “mocking” or insulting you, as you have to her. There’s no call for that. You need to focus less on the scriptures about debts and study more on how to act. There’s no need for such behaviour. If I was going to decide to take up Dave’s methods, I’d be turned off by reading you and never consider his plan at all.
Your good ideas and thoughts are washed out by your demeaning talk.
HOLY CRAP!
Is someone bipolar? Was this written by the same person? Multiple Personalities?
Carol, I guess most of it depends on the attitude that comes through the writing in your interpretation of what I said. I can tell you that is wasn’t vindictive, but it was a slight rebuke and correction and then turned to teaching. (Recognize the passage???) Hey, maybe it was a bit catty, but I have already apologized to May, so we’re good. Especially since she is my sister, I know she has forgiven me. Since you read through all the post, I’m sure you saw that as well as me already addressing the issue of context and understanding.
So Carol, do you want to know what we have done? Or is it all bull hocky because my “ideas and thoughts are washed out by [my] demeaning talk”??
I too thought May seemed very guilty or like she had something to prove. I agree with Wayne. I think he is right on. If she is in the 80% then uh oh! However, if she is a 20%, Ok. But for most people, Bankruptsy is not a good option because you CAN avoid it with hard work. (I’m living proof of that.) I’m glad the government made this a tougher option in recent legislation. Too many lawyers make too much $$ off of it and too many lazy folks take advantage of it.
Carol Said:
You need to focus less on the scriptures about debts and study more on how to act.
That is kinda catty, but hey, I’ll keep that tip in mind! Thanks for pretending that you know me so well from this post about FINANCE & DEBT! You know, I bet even Jesus should have done that… oh wait, more than 280 pieces of scripture refer to finance… crap. Maybe we should find a better Bible, because mine mentions Debt & Finance MORE than LOVE. DANG IT! There I go with the “scriptures” again. We should just leave them out of discussion all together, right Carol? Because if you mention Scripture in context, folks here wont like you because, sometimes, the truth isn’t very fun.
Well, big C, let me know if you want to hear about us, kindly please. Also, this post is full of satire. Just keep that in mind as you read.
PS: 3% of Evangelical Christians give $ to the Church. 97% do not. I’m not talking about an amount or %. The stat is for any $$ at ALL!
Good day,
Ray
“If I had a dime for every time that I can rhyme … I’d be debt free, Yippi!”
Point made, Ray. I LOVE the “Big C”—-although I.m sure it was meant to be insulting, I thought it was so cute! It’s funny how God turned that around and—instead of my being insulted—-it just made me understand you better and try to see things from your perspective. (Although I don’t know where the “bipolar” part comes from—-referring to me? Hmmm. Oh, well—–doesn’t matter).
In all honesty—I DO see where you’re coming from. And you’re 100% right in that it’s hard—very hard—-to interpret a person’s thoughts in writing. I shouldn’t have done so. If I were to hear you say the same things in person, I’m sure I’d have a totally different perspective. I stand corrected.
I have to say, though——I don’t know if I’m the one who’s coming off as “not liking” Dave Ramsey. I don’t believe I’ve ever implied that at all. In fact, let me say I admire him taking on the role against debt and using his name to bring attention of the problem to the public like he has. I think his new show will be a “reality” show that has long been overdue—-a hi-lite on debt and it’s sweeping proportions. I’m very exited about that. I’ve never said at any point that I doubted his Chrisitanity. Quite the contrary. If indeed he is a Christian (only God knows for sure), he will be bringing glory to God through his ministry , and I have to be proud of him for that. I’m so proud that he is not ashamed to say that he is a Christian. And I’m proud that the fact that he is has not thwarted his efforts, as it seems to do sometimes in the world.
And—–what have I said that implies I can’t take the “truth”? What truth am I not taking or not able to handle? I do tithe at my church, for that matter, as well as giving on top of that in other areas where there is a need. Not because anybody has told me to—but because I love Christ and it just is my own way of giving to Him. Dave Ramsey has said nothing that I don’t believe or anything that I cringe about. He, actually, has said nothing new that other financial advisors have not said. It’s all true, and I’ve never had any difficulty accepting any of it.
RAY—-thank you for pointing out the explanation about his debts and selling his house. I had never heard him mention that in the same context, and did not know. I tried to order a copy of his book, but the order was cancelled because the seller really did not have it in stock—-I’ve been waiting to get a copy so I CAN learn more.
And—Big Ray—–(LOL)——-I really WOULD like to know more about your debt progress. I am indeed NOT being sarcastic. Truly—from my heart—-I think it would be an inspiration and wish that you would share it. I did not intend to sound sarcastic about that. It’s a wonderful accomplishment and you should be proud of it, as you are. Really.
Peace? Please?
Carol Said:
“I LOVE the “Big C”—-although I.m sure it was meant to be insulting, I thought it was so cute!”
Uh, it Was NOT meant to be insulting. My apologies if you are large. LOL. I mearly refer to Big C because that is what most people think when they see the word “Carol” - A large C with the cowering “arol”
Anyway, My wife and I have taken, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th jobs!
There are about 3 hours in a day that I am not working. I’m not kidding. But this is OK with us because we understand that for a short time, we will have to work our TAILS off! Also, this weekend, we are having a massive mult-family yard sale - selling everything we can get rid of that isn’t saving us $$.
Since my wife teaches, she has the summer off. This means that she can be a nanny while I’m at work and then at night, we are both Servers at a local resturant. We pull in about 80 or so bucks working 4 hours there ($10 an hour) and then I get back to my other 2 jobs in real estate photography free lance. Durring the day, I’m a tech guy. On the weekends, we pull double shifts at which ever job will let us.
Listen, we don’t make much money. Before our Server Jobs, Nany Jobs, and Side Jobs, our income was less than our LIVING expenses! We had to NOT PAY many a minimum payments. But then, one night we were sitting at home and I mentioned, “What if, for a short time, we REALLY got after our debt and did this Dave Ramsey thing.” After much discussion and prayer we decided to stick the petal to the metal. We got a budget together (took 3 months to figure out). We put $1,000 in the bank to take care of Murphy’s Law (that took about a month or 2). Then her car broke down, we had to get repairs… all sorts of BAD THINGS happenend. We believe “something” was trying to keep us from this. However, God is good and we came out of all this fairly well.
So then we pursued the extra jobs and it has been non-stop! I got home last night at 12:30 AM and was working until about 1:30 a.m. This morning, I woke up about 5:30 a.m. and after a little time for myself & the Lord, I went to work (where I am now). Coffee is my best friend! Right now, That is LIFE, becaue WE HAVE DEBT TO PAY OFF and we REFUSE to take an easy way out. We would have qualified for Bankruptsy. We rent, we own both cars… we just didn’t have the Money to PAY. The Lord has provided HARD JOBS to pay back the debt and this debt is something that I will never have again and will never forget! My wfie and I have grown much closer together through all of this and have been completely humbled. We still keep one night a week free as “date night.” There is a little mexican place close to our house that we always go to, because that is all we are willing to spend. We both eat well for about $10. $15 if we get our favorite waitress who takes incredible care of us.
When I hear about Bankruptsy, I cring. It really isn’t the only way, but it is most often the easy way. If we have 12 more months like this past one, we will be debt free. I know that hard times are coming when I have a career change and have my real estate license, so we are gearing up for that this fall. It isn’t going to be easy, but we will completely debt free sometime next summer. We will have 0 payments! When we first started Dave’s system, we had about $1,000 a month in minimum payments. Now, they total about $700. So we have an “extra $300, to add to our debt snowball. This stuff works yall. Just try it. Who cares if Dave paid back creditors. You can. Who cares if Dave is always right - (he isn’t, he is human). You can still be Debt Free with out bankruptsy!
Just give it a whirl.
PS. My wife and I have noticed an interesting corolation to our Tithes & Offerings and our income. Very Incredible what the Lord does there. Last week, we wrote the largest tithe check of our lives. We wrote PRAISE THE LORD in the memo because he allowed us to earn so much $ that WEEK! To some people this check was “chump change” but to us, it was a MIRACLE to be able to give that much. I’m not bragging here. I’m boasting on what Christ has done for us! However, it was still a little tough. We both looked at each other, knowing that the other was thinking about how much debt the check would pay off, but we both knew that we would have NOTHING if it wasn’t for his provision, so we gave and gave cheerfully! Hilariously as it is in the Greek.
Have a good’n,
-Ray
The new bankrupty bill was passed into law because the powerful CC/banking industry lobbied for it for years.
They whined and complained to Congress how they were losing money from people filing bankrupty. Yet, they contined to offer credit to people who they knew were high risk. They continue to send prescreened offers to those even after they have filed bankruptcy. I know that is a fact, because I receive offers all the time.
The CC/banking industry got a lot of support from spinless congressmen and women from both parties who depend on these powerful corporations to donate money for their elections.
Everyone who knows the facts knows this is the truth.
Ray, I am SO truly proud of you and your wife. Thanks so much for sharing like you did. You have worked SO hard and been so dedicated, and it is paying off. You really have something to look forward to when the debts are behind you. It’s truly an inspiration to read your experience.
There is a book out (you may already have it or have heard of it), called “The Blessed Life” (it’s about tighing and giving—can’t think of the author’s name right off hand)—but your account of the largest tithe you’d mae reminded me of it. If you haven’t read it, you would really enjoy it. You will be so blessed that you’ve givenin faith like that—-I know that for a fact, from experience. Your faith will see you to the end of this journey, and that is so exciting!
Thanks for sharing so much. It’s encouraged me to be more serious about looking for a part time job. I make a very decent salary for my area of town. But I’m 53, and don’t want to head into retirement empty-handed. I want to pay off my car—-I’m so sick of car notes, but I drive quite a distance to work, so I need to keep the car—but I’m determined to pay it off early. A freight company near my job hires part time people to do data entry from 5:30 to 9:00 at night, which would be perfect for me, as get off work at 4:00. I’ve procrastinated about calling them, but your experience was good encouragement to go ahead and do it.
Again, thanks so much for sharing that. And keep up the good work and faith—-you’re on the right track! I wish you (sincerely, I do!) the very best blessings on this journey.
“The CC/banking industry got a lot of support from spinless congressmen and women from both parties who depend on these powerful corporations to donate money for their elections.
Everyone who knows the facts knows this is the truth.”
Actually, if you dig for it, you’ll find a video clip of Dave Ramsey saying the only good part of the law is the counseling part. He said even the Republicans whimped out and and it was him and Ted Kennedy fighting for the consumer… who would have thunk it?
It was at http://treyjackson.typepad.com/junction/files/ramsey.wmv but doesn’t look like it’s there any more.
Any way, Ramsey agrees that the new law was basically created by the creditors.
Glad we cleared up the house story!
I wonder if you aren’t pointing to deeper issues than the goodness of her being a tight-wad. Because it seems like her concern was not do I drive the mini van so that I can have 30 extra bucks a month to help others or do I spend it on gas for an suv. It would seem like the real decision was do I keep 30 extra bucks a month to spend on whatever I want beside gas or spend it on gas for an suv.
So it would seem the issue is actually deeper than do I buy a mini van or suv. The issue is how do I live responsibly in the kingdom and how does that inform what I drive. (This is precisely what you were trying to point out, I know I’m not saying something you didn’t already know.)
Thanks for the post.
This is killing me that people keep on thinking this is a kingdom issue.
Okay, again, Bible, parable of the prodigal son.
When the prodigal son came back, they threw a party, right?
They did *NOT* say ‘welcome back, we aren’t killing any firstlings because that wouldn’t be prudent and it would be better if you ate shoe leather so we can hack the calf in halve and feed 12 starving families’.
or maybe I missed it?
Anybody who thinks the bible says you should be broke is reading something that isn’t there. I’m not saying their aren’t wise and unwise decisions to make with money and I wouldn’t want judgement day to come and not be a tithe payer (when I know about the law of tithing) and I wouldn’t want judgement day to come and have never given more than ‘just’ a tithe (though if the entire Christian world did nothing more than that, heaven would be on Earth right now), but I don’t think our Father in Heaven who loves us is going to cast us to outer darkness for driving an SUV instead of a minivan.
And anybody who thinks otherwise has a lot of scriptural reference they need to be making to support such an argument.
Heck, unless everybody is posting from a free Internet terminal in a library, resources are being ‘wasted’ on computers, Internet connecitivity, etc. And even if you are typing from a free Internet kiosk, time is being wasted on this thread instead of spending it helping out the sick, poor, etc. Heck, the blogger himself should (under his own logic) criticize himself for wasting the God given resource of time in listening to Ramsey or him posting to the blog, let alone the commodity item of gas (you can buy gas, try buying back the last five minutes).
Everyone, stop it with the holier than thou. I’m not holier, and if you think you are, then you *definitely* are not. Christ didn’t rip into to many folks (he hung out with sinners, tax collectors, and all the pariah of society), but he did rip into the holier than thou crowd pretty harshly.
May,
Dave Ramsey has addressed the issue of repaying his creditors. Both in his books, Financial Peace Revisited, Total Money Makeover, as well as in his seminar, I have heard him say that he and his wife totaled up the amount of money they had each month, and went down their list, paying as many bills as they could until they ran out of money. At that point they would draw a line, and anyone under the line would not get paid that month. As the creditors would call, they would tell them that their company was “below the line” and when they’d paid off other debts the company would be paid. He goes on to say that one by one they DID pay off all of their debts. Secondly, filing bankruptcy IS a moral issue because you have made a promise to a company that you will pay back that which you have borrowed from them according to THEIR terms. I know that many people get caught up in debt and feel that there is no alternative but to file bankruptcy, but the truth is that when you sign your name on the dotted line, you have GUARANTEED that company or business that, on your character and good name, you will pay back whatever you have received from them. To file bankruptcy to get a fresh start by having debts removed is not only dishonest, but logically it is also legalized theft. Who cares if it’s a multi-billion dollar corporation? Who cares if “they won’t miss it” or if “they’ll make it back off of someone else”? If you really thought they were that shady, you shouldn’t have done business with them in the first place. Regardless of who it is that you’ve stolen from (an individual or a big business), if you say you’re going to do something, you had darn-well better do it. If you promise to repay debts, you’d better do it, otherwise you are both a thief and a liar. What ever happened to the days when someone’s word and promise actually meant something? I’ve known people who racked up foreclosures, defaulted student loans, and unpaid credit cards. Those same people one day woke up and decided that their credit, and good name, was in the toilet because, for so long, they just didn’t care. They wouldn’t accept bankruptcy as an option because they took RESPONSIBILITY for their BAD money management via living beyond their means. They did what they had to do, they worked their butts off, they did without extras, and they paid off every bad deal one by one until their credit was restored. That’s the way it should be, not that people flush money down the camode on bad money management, but that they do what they promise to do no matter what it takes, not because those evil creditors have earned it, but because it is OUR obligation to do mean what we say. It’s a lost art, something that is rarely spoken of anymore-it’s called integrity. I don’t know what your beef with Dave Ramsey is (and your certainly entitled to your own opinion), but is it really worth over a month of hate-Dave responses to other’s comments? In the time you’ve spent conjuring up your “hate-Dave” rhetoric, you could have gotten a part-time job delivering pizzas and newspapers, paid off your debts, and invested $3,000 in Roth IRAs or a diversified portfolio of mutual funds (that’s a joke).
I have know 7 people that have filed a total of 9 bankruptcies. Not 1 of the BKs was necessary, in fact every one was due to laziness, greed and mismanagement of funds. I believe that there are circumstances that warrant a BK, I’ve just never seen one personally. Following Dave’s advice I am out of debt, at peace and can survive the financial effects of a layoff, broken leg, tree thru the roof….etc. If you choose to disregard Dave’s message, that is certainly your choice, but you cannot deny that thousands of people have made their own lives better thanks to his advice.
I’m going to have to read his books! For one thing, he DID file bankruptcy. Which would mean creditors would not have been calling, as that would be the law. So now I’m curious about these facts. It is against the law for creditors to call afer bankruptcy has been filed, so the re-payment you have mentioned must have been done previous to his bankruptcy. I’m only questioning from a standpoint of confusion now—–why did he file (which he DID) if he had paid them all off? And, like I said, the creditors would not have been contacting him after his filing.
I’m not against Dave Ramsey myself. But his plan is not an original plan at all—in fact, his style of budgeting has been around since before he was born—in fact, probably since before his parents were born. My parents and their parents used the envelope system to pay bills and manage their money. “His” debt snowballing is an age-old practice which many of the credit counseling services were doing years before anybody had ever heard of Dave Ramsey. But I do admire that he does implement and advise (and makes quite a financial gain from) an old-fashioned, tried-and-true debt management program that is older than the hills.
I also was impressed by his latest column in the “Quick and Simple” magazine, in which he addresses bankruptcy. He only refers to it as something like divorce, stating that it is something nobody wants to have to do, and should try to avoid. He goes on to say it is not the end of the world, and that there is life post-bankrupcty. He is very sympathetic in this column, much UNLIKE his fans would have one believe. Turns out, he seemed to be much more open-minded than his “fans” seem to be. He does not have the arrogance that so many of his “fans” have, nor the holier-than-thou attitude where everybody’s life is put into one cookie-cutter world, and everyone’s life is JUDGED by their narrow-minded views on life and its circumstances.
I sound like I’m against him, and I’m truly not. I have nothing against him simply because there is some question in my mind regarding the true facts of his bankruptcy. It is just curiosity.
But for all you who have judged those who have filed bankruptcy, is he somehow exempt from your judgement? After all, he filed too. Like I said, I’m not against him at all—–i